Dangerous Greed

[Birkal]

This concept by Goddess Briyella was approved for discussion. Is this concept worth pursuing? If so, what questions could we ask? How could we improve this? Everyone is free to discuss the following submission as if this was a concept discussion.

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Name: Dangerous Greed

Description: A Pokemon which benefits offensively from consuming items over and over, as opposed to defensively, while still maintaining viability and applying pressure on the opponent.

Justification: Typically, when a Pokemon is granted a move or ability (or a combination of the two, or sometimes with an ability that assists in some way, such as Sturdy) that allows it to continuously consume its item repeatedly, it tends to only make use of it to recover health or to prevent being KOed. There have been no real viable examples throughout Pokemon that allow for a means to make OFFENSIVE use of this maneuver. This would bring a whole new twist to the manipulation of consumable items that has yet to be seen.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How will this Pokemon's ability to reap stacked benefits from one reused item affect the OU metagame?
• Will the Pokemon still be able to function decently well without its item, perhaps by somehow stealing one from an enemy?
• Can the Pokemon be designed to do well offensively with its purpose to the point that reusing items for defensive benefits would be nonviable?
• Should Knock Off, Thief, Trick, and similar moves be able to disrupt this Pokemon's functionality or not? Should it be able to block or punish these attempts?
• Should this Pokemon put pressure on foes by having tricky status options or by being difficult to bring down while setting up?
• Should this Pokemon be able to force switches against relevant Pokemon in OU to better achieve its purpose?

Explanation: Abilities such as Harvest, Cheek Pouch, Unburden, Pickup, Gluttony, and Magician allow for the manipulation of items but usually either end up serving a defensive purpose or being useful only one time, where the benefits cease if the carrier must switch out or gain an item that is not consumable. Recycle is a move that provides another means of recalling a used item but also is almost never relied on for offensive benefits in competitive play. This Pokemon may be able to add something new to the OU metagame by forcing the opponent's choices in a different way, at a different opportunity cost. Additionally, the move Belch is a the strongest special Poison-type move in the game but is largely forgotten about due to its requirement, which is consuming a Berry, and it might have a shot at getting some spotlight if used by a Pokemon with a concept such as this, which brings yet more variety to the game. Generation VI mechanics allow for items to be recalled with Recycle even if the user comes back into battle without its item that it consumed before it switched out in the first place; this generation also brought less reliance on items as well as more conventional ways of removing them from enemy targets, so a Pokemon like this has a good shot at being competitively groundbreaking without being too overpowered.

 

[Jack Ferry]

I personally feel like this concept is worth the while.
One idea might be a starf berry user with cheek pouch. The boost paired with hp to boost again later with can prove useful. (also a sitrus berry with cheek pouch restores about 58% that's nifty)
Another idea might be a shell smash, white herb spammer, A mon like this might make for a good mixed sweeper.
My final, potential BS idea is a gem user. Items like bug gem for example boost a move of its consecutive type but only once. Recycling one of these gems over and over can lead to powerful STAB or even non STAB moves.

(im new to actually putting imput on the forums so sorry if i sound absurd)

 

[hendrix96]

Ferry your last idea actually is really cool, you technically could have like a pseudo stab for a mon but if the mon has to use recycle every time i don't see it ever catching on. however maybe attack boosting berries could be used like the Liechi Berry and Petaya Berry berry as if it had harvest good bulk and recovery it could probably make the opponent think twice about attacking. if we made a really tanky harvest user similar to malconda but with better typing and no boosting moves what so ever but a great recovery move it could probably just sit in the pocket and get boosts as the opponent attacks it, give it taunt as well and things could get interesting... but yeah im speaking out of my butt XD

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Okay guys, gems beyond the normal gem are still not released, so they can't be recycled.

I might as well share my thoughts in brief for the time being. I personally see this concept as having very few viable options. Earlier today in the CAP room, we discussed this concept for maybe 30 minutes. In the end, I think some things like belch or natural gift with harvest/recycle could be really cool. However, I'm not convinced that the options have enough breathing room to provide that much discussion. The biggest flaw is that Harvest just jumps to the obvious forefront. A lot of the abilities mentioned in the concept aren't very viable at all, and Harvest matches the concept to a T so much that I feel like it would almost be required, and I find it difficult to come up with a reasonable simulation in which Harvest doesn't win.

The concept overall is a neat idea, but I feel like we don't have the available options to last a full CAP's worth of discussion...

 

[Burt Racecar]

The issue is that all the gems are unreleased apart from the normal gem, so even though this is CAP we're still making it to fit into the current OU meta for all intents and purposes.

This is a pretty cool concept, there is a lot of untapped potential in terms of offensive consumable items. Berries are my preferable option to discuss as there is a wider range of utility to be provided by them, not just limited to the effects they give, but also as there are abilities and at least a couple of moves that take advantage of consuming berries.

There's also a small number of items like Absorb Bulb which can only be used once (I'm not actually sure if they're consumed, but it's suggested in the description).


In response to the above; is there a viable Belch/Natural Gift user in OU right now? I mean I've heard of Natural Gift Talonflame, but never seen one.
Natural Gift is a really cool move combined with recycle/harvest, a physical move of up to 100bp for any type you want. That sounds pretty awesome to me.
Belch mechanics allow for the move to used as many times as you like once the berry has been used even if you switch out.
There might not be that much to discuss in terms of abilities, but the concept is still largely an unknown to OU.

 

[NumberCruncher]

I suppose the first question we need to ask when implementing this concept is what item we want to eat over and over again.

Leichi, Salac, and Petaya Berries are probably the best options, though if we use one of these options, Recycle is going to be less useful than Swords Dance, Agility, and Nasty Plot respectively, so this is probably going to lead to Harvest as an ability. Alternatively, we could go with a slow Sturdy Salac build where the Pokemon gets hit before recycle goes off, leading to a +2 Speed boost suicide cannon.

Weakness Policy and Focus Sash probably aren't options, but it takes a really gimmicky set to get those off multiple times.

We could go with Normal Gem but this will also lead to the problem of being a worse Swords Dance/Nasty Plot. We could give this to a Contrary Pokemon in order to dodge the negatives of the Contrary ability though, so that's something to look into.

We could build a Belcher with Harvest. That would probably lead to very linear design though, so I would advise against that.

 

[Alfalfa]

If this Pokemon is supposed to gain offensive from using an item over and over, then in order for it to not get ruined by Knock Off / Trick / the like, it needs to be able to discourage Pokemon from using that move, or be good enough at setting up Substitutes to be put into range of using a berry and re-using it again with Harvest.

I remember trying to utilize offensive Harvest with Exeggutor back in BW2 NU, but its biggest issue was the fact that it was so slow, and using Harvest Salac instead of Harvest Liechi was pretty much using an inferior Chlorophyll. If we are going to make a Pokemon that can offensively benefit from using an item over and over again, it sure needs to be able to have a good amount of speed, especially so you can avoid losing the item to a Knock Off from a faster Pokemon.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

A Pokemon which benefits offensively from consuming items over and over, as opposed to defensively, while still maintaining viability and applying pressure on the opponent.

Abilities such as Harvest, Cheek Pouch, Unburden, Pickup, Gluttony, and Magician allow for the manipulation of items but usually either end up serving a defensive purpose or being useful only one time, where the benefits cease if the carrier must switch out or gain an item that is not consumable.

Harvest/Cheek Pouch/Gluttony:
The problem with these is that they force the consumable item to be a Berry. The problem with this is that most Berries are defensive, as they restore health, cure status and reduce damage from super effective attacks. There are a few, such as Starf Berries and Liechi/Salac etc., that can be used offensively, but they seem to be outclassed by the defensive Berries. The challenge, therefore, is to create a CAP that is better suited to these offensive Berries, possibly through making it unable to be used defensively. Cheek Pouch and Gluttony also have the problem that they need Recycle to be able to regain the Berry, which forces the user to lose pressure by essentially giving them free turns.

Pickup:
Pickup's problem is that not only does it has to rid the foe of an item first, the item also has to be used for Pickup to work, which basically means the CAP is useless unless the opponent is using a consumable item.

Magician:
Magician sucks because it relies on the target's item, and therefore, you have little control over it. (Thanks to HeaLnDeaL for that quote) This is especially true for this concept where the item must be consumable, which means the CAP is, once again, useless unless the opponent has a consumable item.

Unburden:
Forces the use of Recycle and only provides its benefit, a speed boost, once.

Belch/Natural Gift:
Belch is a 120 Base Power Special Poison-type attack, making it the joint-most powerful Poison attack along with Gunk Shot, although it has more accuracy (90% to Gunk's 80). Natural Gift is like a physical Hidden Power whose power and type changes depending on the Berry it holds. Again, these both use up the Berry, so Recycle or Harvest is needed to reuse the Berry.

In conclusion, while the concept has quite a few routes, most of them have significant flaws. The most viable by far is Harvest, as it is the only one which does not force the use of Recycle, other than the rather useless abilities of Pickup and Magician. Recycle uses up a turn, and therefore loses the pressure that was mentioned in the concept, and therefore does not fulfill it. Therefore, Harvest and Belch/Natural Gift are the only ways in which this concept can be fulfilled. As HeaL said, this limits the discussion that the CAP could produce. However, this problem could be solved by tweaking the concept, as suggested by cbrevan and The Pizza Man, to not force the CAP to reuse the item over and over again, allowing for greater variety such as the introduction of moves such as Trick and Switcheroo, as well as make abilities like Magician and Unburden more viable to the concept. By not forcing the Pokemon to have to use Recycle, more options open up, such as using the Herbs, Absorb Bulk or Berries, but it doesn't force us to use Harvest in an attempt to recycle the item without losing offensive pressure and momentum.

Tl;dr: Only Harvest and Belch/Natural Gift viable really. Change concept to consumable items in general to avoid being forced into Recycle (which doesn't fit the concept) or Harvest (which forces it into a single ability).

 

[Alfalfa]

Harvest/Cheek Pouch/Gluttony:
The problem with these is that they force the consumable item to be a Berry. The problem with this is that most Berries are defensive, as they restore health, cure status and reduce damage from super effective attacks. There are a few, such as Starf Berries and Liechi/Salac etc., that can be used offensively, but they seem to be outclassed by the defensive Berries. The challenge, therefore, is to create a CAP that is better suited to these offensive Berries, possibly through making it unable to be used defensively. Cheek Pouch and Gluttony also have the problem that they need Recycle to be able to regain the Berry, which forces the user to lose pressure by essentially giving them free turns.

Pickup:
Pickup's problem is that not only does it has to rid the foe of an item first, the item also has to be used for Pickup to work, which basically means the CAP is useless unless the opponent is using a consumable item.

Magician:
Magician sucks because it relies on the target's item, and therefore, you have little control over it. (Thanks to HeaLnDeaL for that quote) This is especially true for this concept where the item must be consumable, which means the CAP is, once again, useless unless the opponent has a consumable item.

Unburden:
Forces the use of Recycle and only provides its benefit, a speed boost, once.

Belch/Natural Gift:
Belch is a 120 Base Power Special Poison-type attack, making it the joint-most powerful Poison attack along with Gunk Shot, although it has more accuracy (90% to Gunk's 80). Natural Gift is like a physical Hidden Power whose power and type changes depending on the Berry it holds. Again, these both use up the Berry, so Recycle or Harvest is needed to reuse the Berry.

In conclusion, while the concept has quite a few routes, most of them have significant flaws. The most viable by far is Harvest, as it is the only one which does not force the use of Recycle, other than the rather useless abilities of Pickup and Magician. Recycle uses up a turn, and therefore loses the pressure that was mentioned in the concept, and therefore does not fulfill it. Therefore, Harvest and Belch/Natural Gift are the only ways in which this concept can be fulfilled. As HeaL said, this limits the discussion that the CAP could produce. However, this problem could be solved by tweaking the concept, as suggested by cbrevan and The Pizza Man, to not force the CAP to reuse the item over and over again, allowing for greater variety such as the introduction of moves such as Trick and Switcheroo, as well as make abilities like Magician and Unburden more viable to the concept. By not forcing the Pokemon to have to use Recycle, more options open up, such as using the Herbs, Absorb Bulk or Berries, but it doesn't force us to use Harvest in an attempt to recycle the item without losing offensive pressure and momentum.

Tl;dr: Only Harvest and Belch/Natural Gift viable really. Change concept to consumable items in general to avoid being forced into Recycle (which doesn't fit the concept) or Harvest (which forces it into a single ability).

I disagree with your notion on Harvest. Against a more offensive team, if the Pokemon is still able to apply pressure against the opponent, then it is not going to NEED the activation of Harvest multiple to not be dead weight; otherwise, the Pokemon would be more of a gimmick. The Pokemon needs to be able to be usable without multiple boosts. Just look at Scrafty; its dependence on having multiple boosts under its belt really hurts its viability. Do we really want to make our next CAP dependent on a high number of boosts to work, making it hard to execute with succession consistently?

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

I disagree with your notion on Harvest. Against a more offensive team, if the Pokemon is still able to apply pressure against the opponent, then it is not going to NEED the activation of Harvest multiple to not be dead weight; otherwise, the Pokemon would be more of a gimmick. The Pokemon needs to be able to be usable without multiple boosts. Just look at Scrafty; its dependence on having multiple boosts under its belt really hurts its viability. Do we really want to make our next CAP dependent on a high number of boosts to work, making it hard to execute with succession consistently?

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

I gather you are saying that the CAP needs to be able to usable without having boosts from Harvest + boosting Berries. First of all, I didn't imply that it had to rely on the boosts, only that they were the only real way the berries could be used offensively.

In addition, I'm confused as to whether you are pro-concept that forces Harvest or anti-concept that forces, and I'm also confused as to why you had no comment on the rest of my post.

Maybe it's because it is half past 11 rn, but I don't understand why you said that and also what your opinion on the concept is. I would appreciate it you could clarify.

 

[Alfalfa]

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

I gather you are saying that the CAP needs to be able to usable without having boosts from Harvest + boosting Berries. First of all, I didn't imply that it had to rely on the boosts, only that they were the only real way the berries could be used offensively.

In addition, I'm confused as to whether you are pro-concept that forces Harvest or anti-concept that forces, and I'm also confused as to why you had no comment on the rest of my post.

Maybe it's because it is half past 11 rn, but I don't understand why you said that and also what your opinion on the concept is. I would appreciate it you could clarify.

I was driven by a implication that you were trying to state that it was reliant on the boosts, I admit that I was reading it the wrong way.

I am pro-force Harvest; you mention in this last sentence that the concept should be changed in order to not limit it to Recycle or Harvest, but does it really have to use the berry all the time? If it capable of using a Life Orb or Choice item, even with being ability-locked into Harvest, then what is the harm? There are Pokemon that are locked into abilities that it may not always benefit from and are still good. However, the move Recycle is really limiting because having to use it over and over again for offensive gain can really hinder the amount of offensive pressure you can exert, so I agree with removing it from the concept (Recycle is more of a Little Cup thing than OU because it can be used more successfully with Berry Juice + Recycle being a legitimate strategy in LC, but that really is not relevant to this point of discussion).

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

The problem with being forced into a single ability is that limits the discussion a concept can make, the most important part of the process, and also I believe it's against the rules to force one ability, since it invalidates the primary ability poll.

Secondly, it does have to use berries all the time, because the concept is to use a consumable item over and over again, which you can't do with Life Orb or Choice items.

 

[En Passant]

Tl;dr: Only Harvest and Belch/Natural Gift viable really. Change concept to consumable items in general to avoid being forced into Recycle (which doesn't fit the concept) or Harvest (which forces it into a single ability).

I'm seconding this. I will also add that Knock Off prevents Recycle and Pickup from regaining the item, and considering that there's an entire other concept dedicated to stopping the move, it's not a problem we can circumvent. (You guys forgot about Thief and Pickpocket btw, though it matters little since they have the same problem as Magician).

Alfalfa: If it's capable of using Life Orb or Choice items, then the entire concept is wasted since those items are used all the time.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Hi there. I'm delighted to see that my concept has been posted here. :)

I see that some users are skeptical of the potential this idea has of garnering enough discussion because of the perceived limitations presented, yet there are more possibilities than just the few being talked about here. Harvest does force the item to be a berry, and there are certainly options there, but let's not forget that Pokemon are not limited to having just one ability. I'll lay out some more possibilities here that I believe have yet to surface, just for examples.


Abysmal HP + Red Card + Sturdy / Endure with Prankster Recycle & recovery or Regenerator

This combination would create a Pokemon that cannot be dealt with by attempting to mow it down with force. However, most Pokemon which use something like this pose no offensive threat and can usually be worked around by using Taunt or passive status. This Pokemon can have low HP and also present an offensive threat that makes it more difficult to circumvent due to its threat level, while it might be easier to bring down with careful playing. Having Fire, Steel, and/or Poison typing could prevent passive status that would ruin the strategy as well.


High Bulk + Weakness Policy + Recycle + Simple

This combination would allow a Pokemon to take a super effective hit and reach +4 in both attacking stats. Possessing the bulk to get off a Recycle later will allow Weakness Policy to activate yet again if the Pokemon has to switch out after consuming it the first time around. Sure, this Pokemon may become "worn down" over time due to recovery issues, but who ruled out the possibility of it being able to run attacking moves such as Horn Leech, Drain Punch, or Oblivion Wing that also heal it? There are possibilities here and room for different angles as well as different attack types to work with that deal with key threats.


Sleep move + Harvest / Recycle with Simple + stat-boosting Berry + Stored Power

This combination would take advantage of putting a foe out of commission and getting a free turn or two to get going, by reusing its berry so that it can set up to sweep. Substitute could also facilitate this strategy as the free turn is used, and will also put the user closer to its Harvest range. It's also worth noting that the boosting of stats makes the cost significantly less later on for strong attacks that have a stat-lowering effect, such as Psycho Boost and Overheat. Sure, Nasty Plot and other boosting moves could come in more handy than this, but the fact that it must reuse its item to become a threat sets a limiter on it that not only defines the Pokemon but also keeps it from being overpowered, as it is meant to be offensively threatening. It's about bringing something new to the metagame, not necessarily having the most conventional combination of traits possible. For example, there's a reason Zapdos doesn't have Hurricane but Articuno and Moltres do, despite Zapdos being able to make much better use of it than they can (both STABs 100% accurate 120 BP moves in rain). Limitations are important, too.


High Special Attack & Speed + any berry + Belch

As has already been stated above, Belch will work after switching out as long as the user has consumed a berry in the match already; the berry chosen can be of any purpose when it is first used, opening up a wide array of early-use possibilities, and then the Pokemon will be able to come back into the battle mid-game or late-game and pose a threat with its Belch attack (the strongest special Poison-type attack in the game). The berry's effect can then be recalled with Recycle yet again depending on what benefit you equipped the Pokemon to have. Even if it's a defensive benefit such as with Sitrus Berry, it should still pose an offensive threat with Belch and the recovery in that case can be seen more as a means of longevity so that it can more effectively sweep without being stopped by priority.


Another possible way to ease Weakness Policy setup would be to have common weaknesses to Fire and Ice and then give the Pokemon the Thick Fat ability, which will effectively neutralize the damage while still causing the boosts to activate, and so on and so forth. There are a lot more possibilities here, and the types, move options, and abilities the Pokemon receives can facilitate those possibilities to make them usable and not simply gimmicks. There are many combinations and justifications possible to make this effective, and OU (or competitive Pokemon altogether, really) has never had anything of this nature bar maybe Natural Gift Talonflame, which isn't common.

 

[ginganinja]

This is a really nice and interesting concept, that I really like. That said, I think its so specific that it locks us into certain opinions before we really get started. Its pretty much Prankster Recycle (which still doesn't even make it that much of a good move), or Harvest. Sure, these are nice things to build a CAP around...but it just locks us into abilities and movesets so early on in the process its unlikely that we could actually gain much positive discussion from such a concept.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

While you put forward some interesting situations, all of them require either Harvest or Recycle, due to the limitation that re-using items puts onto the concept.
Recycle does not fit with the concept, even if it is Prankster Recycle, because the offensive pressure and momentum that the concept cites the CAP has to maintain is lost due to the giving away of a free turn and the predictability of it.
Harvest locks us into a single ability, which is obviously not good, especially for discussion.

Which is why I suggest we change the concept to a Pokemon which uses consumable items in general, to avoid being forced into Recycle (which doesn't fit the concept) or Harvest (which forces it into a single ability).

 

[Jack Ferry]

didnt even consider simple and weakness policy again i am left impressed.

 

[Bughouse]

This is a really nice and interesting concept, that I really like. That said, I think its so specific that it locks us into certain opinions before we really get started. Its pretty much Prankster Recycle (which still doesn't even make it that much of a good move), or Harvest. Sure, these are nice things to build a CAP around...but it just locks us into abilities and movesets so early on in the process its unlikely that we could actually gain much positive discussion from such a concept.

everything ginganinja said

It's just not a cap friendly concept, which is a shame because I think it could be an interesting addition to the meta if done right.

 

[nyttyn]

While I really like this concept, it isn't super CAP friendly. Though I don't see being locked into a specific ability or move as a deal breaker, it definitely does put this on the more unfriendly side of things to the process. Still, I think there is potential for an enjoyable one, even if not as enjoyable as the others.

Still, I'm somewhat worried that we'll either wind up with either a gimmick, or that the mon in question would just use a LO/specs/etc anyways. also malaconda kind of already treaded on this

 

[Empress]

Still, I'm somewhat worried that we'll either wind up with either a gimmick, or that the mon in question would just use a LO/specs/etc anyways.

Seconded. This is exactly what worries me about this concept. There are reasons why such strategies are not common sights in the competitive scene. It's not that there are no viable users of Recycle; it's that the move itself is more trouble than it's worth the majority of the time, save for shenanigans from the likes of Magnemite and Slowbro. I'm also not entirely sure about the examples that we were given to work with.

Abysmal HP + Red Card + Sturdy / Endure with Prankster Recycle & recovery or Regenerator
Red Card is a gimmicky item as is. Even though it will force a typically undesirable switch, the Red Card holder in this case has to go either for Recycle or a recovery move, and the opponent can take advantage of this and freely bring in the switched-out Pokemon again. Realistically speaking, this Pokemon would not get many chances to use its Red Card over and over again.

High Bulk + Weakness Policy + Recycle + Simple
This will give our CAP absolutely zero switch ins if it activates its Weakness Policy. However, similar to the problems that WP Dragonite has, the presence of the item will cause the opponent to play around it and not hit the Pokemon super effectively until it is worn down. Even with Roost, Dragonite often goes the entire match without using its WP against a skilled enough player.

Sleep move + Harvest / Recycle with Simple + stat-boosting Berry + Stored Power
Harvest, while a decent enough strategy as seen with Malaconda, is still inherently unreliable, so a concept that fails its job 50% of the time does not seem desirable. Recycle also uses up a turn when the Pokemon is at low HP, meaning it can be easy for the opponent to simply knock out our CAP as it Recycles. On the flipside, the free switch that a sleep move provides would work well alongside Substitute, and though this is a gimmicky way for the CAP to boost its offense, it just might work if we give it the correct stats to attempt a sweep. Even so, we're still leaving it susceptible to revenge killing no matter what berry we want it to reuse. And if we give it the correct stats to attempt a sweep this way, it may be better off using said stats for standard LO / Choice item killing.

High Special Attack & Speed + any berry + Belch
This doesn't fit the concept because the Pokemon isn't really using its consumable item over and over again. What I mean is that even if the use of Sitrus Berry allows this mon to use Belch, it does not gain the ability to gain the healing effects from its Sitrus Berry multiple times, which is what it appears this concept is attempting to get at.

Dangerous Greed looked really, really cool at first glance, but both the seemingly gimmicky strategies and being locked into a certain move / item / ability combine to raise doubts about it. We could learn how to make these strategies not gimmicks, but even then the mon is likely better off being used conventionally.

EDIT: More about gimmicks. They see success at times largely because of the surprise factor. If this mon's best set is a gimmick, then we'll know what it does right away once it's sent out. With the surprise factor gone, you're left with a set that is more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Second Wind]

This concept sounds neat

We could make it abuse Belch + Harvest. This suggests to me we want powerful Poison Attacks, and maybe Poison as a STAB type. Dark and Poison is a very good combination of STABs that hit lots of stuff neutrally.

Ninetales would be an obvious partner.. and rain would be an obvious way to try and deal with it. I think giving it very high speed, below average bulk (like Starmie's) and Special Attack in need of boosting sounds sensible. The question is how you get it to be supported by sun and to support sun properly so that it's viable. I guess it depends if you can dictate the lack of movepool on it.

It seems very complex to me but Harvest seems like a must.

 

[Burt Racecar]

So I was thinking about this concept earlier and how it could possibly be reworked into something that doesn't pigeonhole our decisions into specific abilities, namely Harvest.

A key part of the concept lies with the repetitive consumption of items. In OU this is actually only done by Trevenant, who just isn't that good in the meta in the first place.
Then there are both offensive and defensive consumers of items, to name a few here, BD sitrus Azumarill, Salac/Custap Skarmory, Power Herb Unburden Hawlucha and ChestoRest Rotom-W.

I propose we drop the necessity of repetitive use of consumable items, and tweak the concept into creating a pokemon that uses consumable items in an offensive capacity, differently from what currently exists in OU.

The only two pokemon who use consumables offensively are PowerHerb Unburden Hawlucha and WeaknessPolicy Dragonite as far as I'm aware. These are two items we'd probably do best to stay away from. I don't think Weakness Policy wouldn't be a desirable route to take in the first place as the reliability of activating the item is very shaky, especially if this pokemon is effectively defined by that item.

So by reworking the concept in this way I believe we can afford our ability options to be a lot wider and not be restricted to just Harvest, Gluttony, Cheek Pouch. There is still room to give this CAP recycle, but I don't think that should be a major point of discussion or even a mandatory point of discussion.

There is still the inherent problems of item restrictions, which is unavoidable without destroying the concept.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

Harvest/Cheek Pouch/Gluttony:
The problem with these is that they force the consumable item to be a Berry. The problem with this is that most Berries are defensive, as they restore health, cure status and reduce damage from super effective attacks. There are a few, such as Starf Berries and Liechi/Salac etc., that can be used offensively, but they seem to be outclassed by the defensive Berries. The challenge, therefore, is to create a CAP that is better suited to these offensive Berries, possibly through making it unable to be used defensively. Cheek Pouch and Gluttony also have the problem that they need Recycle to be able to regain the Berry, which forces the user to lose pressure by essentially giving them free turns.

Pickup:
Pickup's problem is that not only does it has to rid the foe of an item first, the item also has to be used for Pickup to work, which basically means the CAP is useless unless the opponent is using a consumable item.

Magician:
Magician sucks because it relies on the target's item, and therefore, you have little control over it. (Thanks to HeaLnDeaL for that quote) This is especially true for this concept where the item must be consumable, which means the CAP is, once again, useless unless the opponent has a consumable item.

Unburden:
Forces the use of Recycle and only provides its benefit, a speed boost, once.

Belch/Natural Gift:
Belch is a 120 Base Power Special Poison-type attack, making it the joint-most powerful Poison attack along with Gunk Shot, although it has more accuracy (90% to Gunk's 80). Natural Gift is like a physical Hidden Power whose power and type changes depending on the Berry it holds. Again, these both use up the Berry, so Recycle or Harvest is needed to reuse the Berry.

In conclusion, while the concept has quite a few routes, most of them have significant flaws. The most viable by far is Harvest, as it is the only one which does not force the use of Recycle, other than the rather useless abilities of Pickup and Magician. Recycle uses up a turn, and therefore loses the pressure that was mentioned in the concept, and therefore does not fulfill it. Therefore, Harvest and Belch/Natural Gift are the only ways in which this concept can be fulfilled. As HeaL said, this limits the discussion that the CAP could produce. However, this problem could be solved by tweaking the concept, as suggested by cbrevan and The Pizza Man, to not force the CAP to reuse the item over and over again, allowing for greater variety such as the introduction of moves such as Trick and Switcheroo, as well as make abilities like Magician and Unburden more viable to the concept. By not forcing the Pokemon to have to use Recycle, more options open up, such as using the Herbs, Absorb Bulk or Berries, but it doesn't force us to use Harvest in an attempt to recycle the item without losing offensive pressure and momentum.

Tl;dr: Only Harvest and Belch/Natural Gift viable really. Change concept to consumable items in general to avoid being forced into Recycle (which doesn't fit the concept) or Harvest (which forces it into a single ability).

So basically, Toebag is agreeing with what I was saying earlier. However, he did add that we keep the concept's focus, as it is currently, on using this item offensively, which I totally agree with. The question here is how do we make a CAP which prefers this consumable item offensively to things like Choice items or Life Orb, which are great offensive choices for a lot of Pokemon.

Absorb Bulb, Berries, Cell Battery, Red Card, Focus Sash, Eject Button, Normal Gem, Mental Herb, Snowball (raises Attack by 1 if hit by a Ice-type attack), White Herb. Not counting Power Herb and WP, these are the only consumable items. Many of them seem more defensive (Red Card, most Berries, Mental Herb) while Cell Battery, Snowball and Absorb Bulb seem kinda bad, and inferior to WP anyway. This leaves Normal Gem, White Herb and Focus Sash. In lower tiers, there are Normal Gem and White Herb users, but these 2 items are quite limited anyway, discussion wise. Focus Sash is arguably the best consumable item of all, but with SR everywhere, plus the fact Sash is already common in OU, we have a dilemma of what item can fulfill this concept.

 

[Billy the Uncle]

From what I read so far, it seems like the concept is pretty much restricted to Berries. Recycling/stealing/somehow regaining other items sounds a bit pointless: Focus Sash can't be used multiple times unless you're Shedinja or you have a lot of turns to Recover back to full health, being hit two times by a supereffective move to get a Weakness Policy boost would take a ton of bulk (making the use of WP pointless). Recycling Power Herbs would waste a turn to get a one turn SolarBeam/Geomancy/whatever making it even more pointless, and Gems... well, you can just attack twice and deal more damage. Stealing items with Pickpocket/Magician would be highly unreliable, especially since consumable items aren't commonly used to begin with, and you might end up with a useless or even hindering item.

Berry using sounds a lot more interesting though. Petaya/Liechi/Salac berries have interesting effects but their use have always been niche. An idea that struck me is that of a powerful, but slow mixed attacker with Simple and no boosting moves, using Salac Berry to get a +2 boost to Speed and then using its power and coverage to mow enemy teams.

Of course, the "over and over" part of the concept is the hardest one to figure out, especially if we decide to go outside the obvious route of Harvest/Recycle (pretty much like the Einherjar concept went without Aftermath and Destiny Bond). Personally, I would tweak the concept to "Pokemon which works best with consumable items", but that's just my opinion.

 

[Iron Caliber]

It's a shame Sticky Barb doesn't work with Recycle, otherwise that would be really cool to try.

Fling is another move that synergizes with having multiple items. The possibility of a Pokemon with Fling and Magician, while gimmicky, could potentially work with this concept. Really the only good Fling targets are King's Rock (for the flinch) and Iron Ball (for the BP) but the concept of "take opponent's item, Fling opponent's item, now they don't have an item and you do damage" seems like it could have an inkling of potential. But, again, that's restricting it to a specific ability which is hard to work with.